ABA CEO Simon Birmingham transcript of interview on ABC Illawarra with Melinda James on money mules

E&OE
Radio Interview
ABC Illawarra
22 July 2026.

Topics: Buying and selling of bank accounts; Efforts to combat money laundering; Scam prevention efforts by banks

Melinda James: Well, this is a big and growing problem. There were 13,000 bank accounts shut down by the four major Australian banks in the financial year 2023–24. So, how big a problem is this? These money mule accounts. I’m joined now by the CEO of the Australian Banking Association, Simon Birmingham. A very good morning to you.

Simon Birmingham: Good morning, Mel, and good morning to your listeners.

Melinda James: Okay, growing problem. People might not have even heard of this. Can you just explain, as far as you understand it, how these things work? Because it’s also unsuspecting people, as well as people who might say, “I can get a bit of cash by just lending them my bank account.” It’s both, isn’t it? What are these things?

Simon Birmingham: Indeed, Mel, that we can only but wish everybody was as diligent as Hussein in doing some of the checks that he did. Although, frankly, the clear message that should be given out is you should never be selling access to your bank account under any circumstances to anyone. And stopping right at the get-go and not contemplating it is the best pathway forward. But this is sadly a growing problem, and it’s rife on social media with criminal gangs and syndicates advertising for people to be able to have quick and easy ways to make a quick and easy buck, and they are enticing often international students, but also other Australians and vulnerable Australians into selling access to their bank accounts, and then that is used for a range of nefarious and criminal purposes.

These syndicates and gangs, often with international ties, are seeking to be able to move money, launder money through the Australian system, using otherwise legitimate bank accounts to be able to then get it out of the country, and we have really tough laws in Australia about the identification of who owns a bank account. No doubt, you and many of your listeners, like me, have faced the bugbear and hassle of your bank asking you to verify your identity. What’s known as “Know Your Customer” provisions, and having to provide that information not just when you open a bank account, but often at random times where banks are verifying that you are still the person who you say you are, who is in control of that bank account. These are all some of the important safeguards that are in place, but that’s why, because we have such high standards, criminals go to these lengths to tap legitimate people to access otherwise legitimate bank accounts, so they can move criminal money around the economy.

Melinda James: So, what are the red flags for banks, then? Is this mainly just about shipping money overseas, transferring money to an overseas account? What raises the red flag for banks?

Simon Birmingham: So, well, as you indicated, Australian banks have shut down many thousands of dodgy bank accounts and do so each and every single year. And they do look at many red flags: sudden changes in activity in a bank account. So, increasingly, banks are able to use technology tools, including artificial intelligence tools, to see when the nature and type of transactions occurring in an account changes quite significantly and dramatically, and that odd activity can then trigger closer monitoring as to what is happening. The sharing of information between banks and especially with intelligence organisations. Australia’s banks, together with other financial agencies, stood up and funded an entity known as the Australian Financial Crimes Exchange, and that shares a lot of intelligence and information to try to shut down these types of criminal activities.

And banks also work through the Fintel Alliance with AUSTRAC, the Australian government’s agency responsible for stopping money laundering and ensuring that those sorts of international criminal syndicates who want to move money around, or indeed those in Australia who are seeking to launder money as part of things like the illicit tobacco industry, are best able to be captured and caught. And all of that, along with increased technology on our accounts, like biometric checks and the like, are new tools that are used by banks to try to keep accounts secure and make it harder for anybody to sell their account to somebody else. But people should know if they do sell their account to others, you’re getting into bed with some pretty nasty people, and of course, there may be some really nasty criminal consequences for you as well as being part of those money laundering syndicates.

Melinda James: You might just think it’s a quick way to make a buck. There are a lot of unsuspecting people who are being caught up in this as well, I think is my understanding, too. But look, I’m wondering if almost kind of perversely, like you talked about using biometrics, those sorts of tougher, more stringent identity measures that banks are using now, but maybe strangely, these changes are leading to an increase in criminals trying to access personal bank accounts and paying people to do so because it used to be pretty easy to open a bank account, and now facial recognition, those sorts of things, is making it harder for criminals to open fakeish bank accounts under different names or whatever. So, they’re trying to use legitimate people with legitimate ID, so attempts to crack down on this perversely has kind of led to an increase in this money mule problem?

Simon Birmingham: No doubt, Mel, that Australia’s tough laws on anti-money laundering, together with banks adhering to those laws and applying those laws, but also putting security standards in place for Australians that keep their bank accounts safer, have all made it harder for criminals to set up dodgy bank accounts, and that’s a good thing. But it is driving their demand to then access legitimate accounts. Tragically, though, the social media companies are facilitating that demand. Where we really need to see more responsibility taken is from the social media companies, those global technology companies, in stamping out the advertising and promotion of these practices, and that’s where there is an opportunity to limit that. Not all of it is explicit upfront, but too much of it is, and where it is clear that people are advertising and trying to get Australians to sell access to a bank account, that just shouldn’t be allowed in the first place, and those ads should be stamped out and taken down instantly.

Melinda James: Just one final question before I let you go, because this is something that happened to me personally just the other day, and I remember being gobsmacked when I heard from a listener their story of having their home deposit stolen because someone had hacked into their solicitor’s email and changed the account number, so it came from their email address. Everything was exactly the same; it just had a different bank account number, and so their entire deposit went into a criminal’s bank account. I thought this was extraordinary when I heard it, and hardly believed it. But this is a growing thing as well, isn’t it? I encountered this just the other day, helping a family member buy a car, and we had to call the car dealership to get them to read out the bank account, the BSB and the account number and everything to ensure that it was in fact going to the right account. This is happening more and more too, isn’t it? That where you might actually get some official documentation from someone, a dealership, a solicitor saying, “Hey, deposit your money into this account,” your home deposit or whatever it happens to be, large sums of money, and someone can hack into that email and change the account number.

Simon Birmingham: That’s right Mel. These are known as impersonation scams, where again, criminal scammers, ever more sophisticated, are sending out fake invoices that appear to come from an email account that reflects a conveyancer, an accountant, somebody else you might be doing business with, a tradie or otherwise, where you’re paying a significant deposit or sum, and they’ll send that invoice that looks legitimate, comes from a legitimate bank, comes from a legitimate email address or appears to do so. So, what should you do in those circumstances, and what are banks doing?

Well, the big change we have deployed in the last year or so is what’s known as Confirmation of Payee technology. Many people will have seen that when they go to transfer money through their bank account, there is now a process where they enter the name along with the account details, and it then checks whether the account details match the name on that account. If you get a green tick, you can be confident that that account is what it says it is. And so, if you are paying for a trader, you’re paying for some landscaping work, for example, if it’s the name of the landscaping business that matches, then you should have a high degree of confidence. But if you ever get an amber or red signal from that, and it says the name doesn’t match or it’s an imperfect match, please, please do exactly as you did, Mel, and that is pick the phone up to the person you’re doing business with, and check that the account details are accurate. If there’s ever a scintilla of doubt, if you think the email address looks a little bit funny, check the account details. If you think the invoice looks a bit dodgy, check the account details because this is a risk. Again, it’s very much tied up, these people will often be using mules’ accounts, using accounts where they have bought access to somebody else’s account, and then siphon money through that. That’s why it’s hard for them to get the names to match in terms of the business you’re dealing with, and it’s why that technology that has been developed by some of our major banks shared with all Australian banks, so that we can cross-check those transactions right across the Australian system and try to keep Australians’ money safer.

Melinda James: Simon Birmingham, thank you so much for your time this morning.

Simon Birmingham: My pleasure.

Ends

Scams & Fraud